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Hi, Kathleen.

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Happy to see you here.

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And I'm very grateful that you want

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to share some of your experiences.

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You are a happy mother, a proud mother

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of three children, a happy family, and

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you have a career in international company.

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And as most people in Western society are doing, we are

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rushing because we want to be the best mother and to

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be a good employee and to be a good colleague and

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to be a good manager and to be good in everything.

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And at a certain moment, what I see as a

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medical doctor quite often and what we see with the

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'15Minutes4Me.com' program, a lot of people, they

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hit the borders of what our body can take.

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And for some people, they go and burn out.

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Others get anxiety, others will get

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depressions or other psychosomatic problems.

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In your case, it was mainly burn out.

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So that almost from one day to another, your body

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said, okay, I don't collaborate in the game anymore.

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And I'd like to have your experience.

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What I want to learn from you and also to be able

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to share with people who view is what was helpful to you.

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So what did you learn from that experience?

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And in the second stage, what did

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the program contribute to this help?

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So what in general was helpful to you and how did

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you find a program and how did that contribute to what

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you wanted to change and what you wanted to reach in your life?

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So I think if I understand correctly, Paul, your

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first question is around what did I learn from

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the overall experience, from the burn out itself I guess? Yeah.

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And especially from the experience and what helps because

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of course, it's more useful that people learn about

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what helps than the diagnostic or the medical part.

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Yeah.

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So I think certainly that what I think, which

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is very important, is that you try to prevent

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it, because if you are for the people that

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are going through it, they probably already know.

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For the people that are for the moment,

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experiencing very high stress symptoms, it's not a

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great moment to hit the wall.

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So as you mentioned, you don't see it coming.

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If you hit the wall, it's too late.

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Now, the good news is that you can get out of it.

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I'm kind of a proof of that for myself.

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You can get out of it if you follow the right step.

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I hear all the stories of people who don't do that.

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And I can also share that because I come across

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also people that have had a burnout, and then you

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still see that there's still some remaining issues that they

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are tackling, and then you still wonder, didn't you get

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the right help or what have you missed or what

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was different for me, that I don't seem to have

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these remaining anxiety problems or remaining stress symptoms.

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That's interesting.

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We certainly want to go deeper on that one also here.

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So for me, what I noticed is, okay, you go

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into a burnout and then you're confronted with yourself.

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So I had a lot of medical support, and one

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of the big questions that was asking me is what

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are you going to change in your life?

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That's the question that doctors are the

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people who try to help you. Yeah.

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That's quite tough because at that moment

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in time you're not feeling so great.

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Let's say that you're not in a solution state of mind.

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You don't find that quickly solution.

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So on your own, that's not so easy to go

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through that. Do you mean, like it's probably the most

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important question, but at that time it's almost like too

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early to answer it or too difficult?

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I think it's too difficult

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because you're not feeling okay.

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You don't know exactly what caused it.

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So you first need some relief before you can what

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I hear you say, it's like as if it's a

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process in different stages where in one stage you need

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to relieve the body and in a later stage you

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will need to address that deeper questions.

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Yeah, certainly.

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So there's certainly a resting part in there.

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What really helped me with the online program is

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it starts up quite slowly in the sense that

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it explains you at the start a lot of

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concepts about how your mind works.

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And those were things that

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I actually didn't know before.

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So you mean that what was helpful for you?

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Is this what we call in our technical words

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of psycho education, where we teach in simple, non

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medical words how the brain works and what happens

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when you get into either burnout or depression or

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anxiety so that you have an understanding almost like

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biologically what's happening. Because I think something is going

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wrong with your heart or with another organ.

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You get quite a lot of

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great explanations from your doctors.

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I didn't get a feeling when I had a

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burnout that these type of explanations were given.

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And actually you can consider it's an organ as well.

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And it works in a certain way.

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And the more you understand it, the more

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as well you can work with it. Yeah.

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So the understanding of the biological, let's say the simplified

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explanation of the biological parts of the brain, that was

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very useful to you. It is very useful. Certainly. And then the fact that it

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is daily, I think that is very crucial. Yeah.

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Has that been important to you, the fact

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that you have a kind of daily structure

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or support or something at home?

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I was in the case, I was at home.

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I can imagine when people are not at home

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yet, but still you are struggling to survive, to

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survive your stress into that moment in time.

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It's great to know that you have a 15 minutes

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daily help for yourself or moments of reflection and that

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you don't need to wait for what is it a

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typical one month before you see your doctor again?

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Two weeks or three weeks.

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It's in the evening again that you get

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some information or an exercise to do.

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And that is a little step.Because

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that's interesting what you're saying, because your

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experience like this daily report was important.

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And sometimes people who didn't follow the program,

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they asked me this kind of question like, but

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don't you need this human relationship?

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How can a program be useful?

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Some people say this must be very

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anonymous, although I hear some people who

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experience the program say the opposite.

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How did that relate in comparison

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with someone guiding you live?

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But you have to drive there and

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all the consequences because it's daily.

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But it's a program.

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I'm not saying that one

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can always substitute the others.

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I also use the face to face support.

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But I do see it certainly has a very big compliment.

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And I can also understand for people that are

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not in a situation that I was already if

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I would have known of this before. Yeah.

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More preventive. For more preventive that

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it's probably you don't want to

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go and see whatever psychologist, coach.

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That's what I hear from many people.Because

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you don't feel that you're ill, you don't

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feel that it's the moment to see them.

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Yet there's still taboo around it.

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And in that case, I think it is very easy to

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start off this program and you probably see even quicker benefits

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than in the case when you're already deep in it.

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Yeah, that's what I've heard from other people also.

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But what you are saying is that

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this daily support was very important.

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So the fact that there was every

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day some type of a guidance. Yeah.

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Also because what I also liked is that you start to

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kind of test to see how you are different levels.

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And it shows it very graphically.

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In my case, I think it was very confrontational

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to see that I was not doing great.

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I already knew that consultant with that as well.

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And then actually, you see, because of your

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daily follow up, you see an evolution.

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And I think that is fantastic.

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The fact that you have a kind of feedback from

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yourself to yourself through the program. Then you see actually

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that it's paying off and it's a quite quick evolution.

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I'm not saying you go immediately from red and

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to green and so not what is happening.

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But you see that through the actions that you

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are taking, you see that you are slowly but surely okay.

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How does it feel like you have

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to motivate yourself to do it?

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Was it difficult to of course, you get your

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invitation by email, but you still have to decide

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to take action to keep following the program.

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Was it difficult or was it pretty easy? It's only 15 minutes.

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Yeah.

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So I think when you're at home and 15 minutes

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is certainly not a lot, when you are still working.

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And so I've heard of other people that have followed it

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then even then the 15 minutes is not a lot.

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Do you also get feedbacks of colleagues,

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who follow the program and who

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are still more in the preventive state?

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In the preventive state, yeah. Maybe.

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Do you have some reflections on how because it's

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interesting to hear how you experienced it, but if

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you have feedback from colleagues, how they experienced it

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as a kind of more in an earlier preventive

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stage? How does it work for them?

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I think it's the same.

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The first thing that was interesting for them is to

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realize that they did have a problem and then that

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you can also work on that job because there's so

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many different places you can go to.

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But there's not a lot people don't

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find a lot of trusted places.

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There's quite a lot of people

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that have followed your programs.

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So you do have some evolution over time.

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There's some research that has been done so that builds

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kind of a trust for people to start using it

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because you have to get over that first fear of...

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Was that difficult for you when you were looking on

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the Internet to decide what to find, which program or which

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solution to trust, or was it a difficult search?

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I think for me, I looked at something which

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seemed to be built by someone who has experience

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in the domain and where you see that there

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is a continuous effort on improving the program and

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that also does thorough reflections on the subject itself. So, I think that was for me.

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Of course, there are other solutions available, but still,

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I think you have to do your own market

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research to see if it fits your needs.

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And for me, this was a great and easy

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solution for a reasonable price to sell, because I

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think that is an easy you don't need to

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buy immediately for whatever, six months or so. Yeah.

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You can decide one month, and if later

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you say no, it's enough, it's enough.

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If you want more, you can step in for another month.

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It can be immediately or much later.

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That's what we tried to do to leave choice. Yeah.

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And it's not like this membership where

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you didn't see the small numbers.

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It's not easy to so you can stop it.

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You can also pick it up again if you

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feel that you want to pick it up again.

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So at least you are, because the people that

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are using it, I would say, are in quite

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a fragile situation and you don't have the feeling

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that somebody is taking advantage of you.

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So you can stop it if you want to stop it.

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You can start if you want it. It is an open game. Exactly. That's good.

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Now you were telling me about that

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daily structure was helpful to you.

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What else?

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Or the information in the beginning, what more was helpful

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in the program and how did it help you?

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How did it impact you?

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What I really liked and which was not

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even, I think, marketed as much when I

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decided to use it was the body system. Yeah.

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The feedback. The feedback from bodies from you

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select who are the people around you that

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are going to support you through your process.

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And it actually helped them to know how to support me.

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So the fact that we teach in small

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videos, the family members, YouTube, your friends who

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are your buddies, that they got some more

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instruction on how to be helpful to you. Yeah.

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And you see, I actually didn't know that

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you received videos, but it did help.

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It was interesting.

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I didn't know.

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But I could see a change in the

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way that they were interacting with me. With you.

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Yeah, that's interesting because we try in the program because

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we want to see how can we help people and

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use their natural system and natural resources and family and

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friends are natural resource, and that's the goal.

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But it's pleasant to hear that that's

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really the way you experience it also.

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Yeah, because it also, I think, clarified a lot

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to them of what is going on with you,

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which is not something that you can always explain.

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It's not they are going with you

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to a doctor's appointment or whatever.

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So in that sense, I truly felt a change

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in their interactions with their way of supporting you.

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That's interesting. That's very nice.

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I remember that he once mentioned to

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me the self reflection aspects, that it

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helped you look different at yourself.

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Could you tell something about how that works for you?

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Yeah, I think in the self reflection, I probably

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didn't mention it now again, because it has become so

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natural for me to do this now.

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So I think the most important part of

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my 15 minutes is that it's about learning

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new behaviors that you then incorporate in your

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DNA and that you then continue to use.

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So the idea is not that you're going

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to use this and then forget about it.

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The idea is that you're going to change the way that

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you are. So self reflection can be a lot of things.

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One of the things that I think that I realized

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for myself that learning to say no in every type

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of circumstance is not an easy thing to do.

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So through the program, you learned to put

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more boundaries and say no to people.

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It's already discovering that this is I think the

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first step in the program is always observing certain

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behavior, which was interesting for me as well, because

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we have the idea that immediately we need to

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change something, which is quite difficult actually.

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But if you already start by

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observing behavior that you have.

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Yeah, it goes slower.

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It goes slower, and it's much more mindful,

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and you're a little bit milder on yourself.

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So certain behaviors, and then you

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decide for yourself that you actually have

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choices of shooting for another behavior.

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And I think in the first step realizing

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that, okay, I have difficulties to say no.

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Then you observe that for some time, and

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then you can realize, okay, what's another type

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of behavior that I can have?

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That's interesting.

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You always make me smile.

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Because when you are telling this about saying

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no, I was thinking did we include this

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as a topic in the program?

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And I don't even remember.

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So I would assume that this was

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some self discovery that you did by

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answering the questions and observing yourself.

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Because it's not something that we certainly

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not in the version that you were

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attending, because since then it has evolved.

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But in the version that you are attending, we

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never said that saying no is an important thing.

17:31.170 --> 17:34.294
So it seems that it's something that you are subconsciously...

17:34.392 --> 17:36.862
There are a couple of questions every day.

17:36.936 --> 17:39.898
I don't remember them by heart, which trigger yourself

17:39.984 --> 17:44.410
reflection and then you can listen for yourself, certain

17:44.520 --> 17:47.794
behaviors or things that are getting into your way.

17:47.892 --> 17:51.840
And I think this is an example of something that really...

17:52.650 --> 17:54.598
Because do you remember how long is it to go?

17:54.624 --> 17:58.560
Is it more than a year or more years?

18:00.750 --> 18:03.658
It's actually almost certainly two

18:03.684 --> 18:05.638
and a half years ago.

18:05.664 --> 18:08.278
That the program. It's interesting.

18:08.364 --> 18:10.858
I forgot that it was already so long

18:10.884 --> 18:15.250
ago because then you have a better overview

18:16.770 --> 18:18.914
what it makes on the long term.

18:18.962 --> 18:21.780
Because sometimes people say, yeah, I'm going to do.

18:22.170 --> 18:24.790
Sometimes people by mistakes, write me an email

18:24.840 --> 18:29.258
and say your course or your Elearning.

18:29.354 --> 18:32.950
But I did never design it as an Elearning

18:33.270 --> 18:36.490
because you are familiar in companies with Elearning.

18:36.870 --> 18:38.002
What's the difference between

18:38.076 --> 18:39.374
this program and Elearning?

18:39.422 --> 18:41.114
Because some people think because there's

18:41.162 --> 18:43.474
also some videos in the program.

18:43.572 --> 18:46.414
So some people think it's something like

18:46.452 --> 18:48.838
Elearning, but it's different, I guess. Yeah.

18:48.864 --> 18:54.238
Because Elearning is really a training you would train

18:54.324 --> 18:57.478
someone on, I don't know, stress management only.

18:57.624 --> 19:00.802
I'm not saying that there's no aspects in there which I

19:00.816 --> 19:06.274
would rather consider as mentoring, someone who has a lot of

19:06.312 --> 19:10.678
more experience in it, who is sharing techniques on how you

19:10.704 --> 19:17.414
can better manage your stress, how it would be easier for

19:17.452 --> 19:22.000
you to get your mind to slow down.

19:23.290 --> 19:25.900
There's a couple of techniques that I can think of.

19:28.550 --> 19:30.078
What is the big difference is that I

19:30.104 --> 19:32.914
would rather call it some kind of coaching

19:32.962 --> 19:35.610
mode because it's self coaching mode.

19:37.670 --> 19:40.666
It's you in person behind the camera.

19:40.738 --> 19:43.940
It becomes quite personal in that way.

19:44.390 --> 19:50.290
And through the questions, you trigger people to reflect

19:50.350 --> 19:54.962
and bring them to their not you're the expert.

19:54.986 --> 19:57.394
But I think there's solution part of their

19:57.432 --> 20:01.982
brain that activates the solution focused thinking areas

20:02.006 --> 20:06.094
in the brain.Because otherwise I mean people that are

20:06.132 --> 20:08.474
in this phase are in their reptile brain

20:08.522 --> 20:10.490
and they don't find solutions anymore.

20:10.610 --> 20:13.980
So that's why it's stronger, I think.

20:15.090 --> 20:19.150
I would certainly not consider it as an Elearning.

20:21.090 --> 20:23.834
I wanted to hear what was your opinion?

20:23.882 --> 20:27.094
Because sometimes people are confused. Because of course most

20:27.132 --> 20:30.300
of the things on the market are Elearning. Yeah.

20:30.630 --> 20:33.506
And it's quite difficult to explain to people what's

20:33.518 --> 20:39.182
the difference because you learn some techniques, but it's

20:39.206 --> 20:41.194
not sure that you will integrate them in your

20:41.232 --> 20:44.158
daily life and in all the different contexts that

20:44.184 --> 20:47.030
you are going to work and professional.

20:47.150 --> 20:52.114
And I seem to have impression that you could

20:52.152 --> 20:54.814
integrate quite a lot of those things as well

20:54.852 --> 20:58.020
in your private life as in your business life.

20:59.250 --> 21:01.810
Because I remember that you once told me because

21:01.860 --> 21:05.146
we did this interview in Dutch language before.

21:05.328 --> 21:09.274
And I remember that in the Dutch interview you told

21:09.312 --> 21:12.838
me something that there were things that your daughter or

21:12.864 --> 21:17.014
one of your children were taking over, all those things

21:17.052 --> 21:19.834
that you indirectly were learning in the program.

21:19.992 --> 21:22.426
And then at a certain moment, I don't know,

21:22.548 --> 21:25.310
there was an incident that on the table.

21:25.370 --> 21:28.814
Your daughter at certain moment said, let's

21:28.922 --> 21:31.774
do this or that. Several things that

21:31.872 --> 21:33.542
we learned or that we adapted.

21:33.626 --> 21:35.698
I think one of the things that we did

21:35.724 --> 21:40.150
is sometimes we ask each other to ask nice

21:40.200 --> 21:43.234
stories about the day of people determining their day.

21:43.272 --> 21:46.800
So it brings it back to the positive part.

21:47.130 --> 21:50.686
So otherwise you always focus on the problems.

21:50.808 --> 21:53.110
That's something you still keep as a ritual.

21:53.550 --> 21:55.546
I'm not saying that we're doing that every day,

21:55.608 --> 21:58.620
but at regular points in time, we ask them

21:59.370 --> 22:03.370
and the children, it's funny because they even start

22:03.420 --> 22:07.654
a conversation themselves, and they will also notice when

22:07.692 --> 22:09.862
somebody is not replying to the question.

22:09.936 --> 22:13.354
So being very mindful towards children, if

22:13.392 --> 22:15.338
my husband is, for example, not answering,

22:15.374 --> 22:17.170
they will ask very nice questions.

22:17.220 --> 22:18.322
And how is your data?

22:18.396 --> 22:23.714
You haven't said anything, so it's quite helpful.

22:23.762 --> 22:25.414
So you can translate actually.

22:25.572 --> 22:27.874
And I think that is the challenge for each one of us.

22:27.912 --> 22:30.346
You follow the program and it's not like

22:30.468 --> 22:33.142
sets of rules that you need to follow.

22:33.276 --> 22:34.882
You can then see how it works for

22:34.896 --> 22:37.980
you and then adapt it to your situation.

22:38.490 --> 22:41.866
So these things that your children, for instance,

22:41.928 --> 22:46.214
were learning indirectly, was there some conscious effort

22:46.262 --> 22:47.974
that you said, oh, I want to share,

22:48.072 --> 22:49.634
or did that happen spontaneously?

22:49.682 --> 22:50.854
How does that work?

22:50.892 --> 22:53.590
I think to me it happened at the start very

22:53.640 --> 22:57.838
spontaneously because to be honest, my day didn't consist of

22:57.864 --> 22:59.974
a lot than the things that I was learning there.

23:00.012 --> 23:02.674
So you want to share of what is

23:02.712 --> 23:04.066
going on and what you are learning.

23:04.128 --> 23:06.646
And it brings you back in a

23:06.648 --> 23:08.938
nice way because before you're ill, your

23:08.964 --> 23:11.362
children don't understand what is going on.

23:11.496 --> 23:13.318
And I think then they saw a shift as

23:13.344 --> 23:17.158
well with me learning new things, bringing it to

23:17.184 --> 23:20.770
them and creating an interest on their side.

23:20.940 --> 23:25.334
And then I think later then you reflect

23:25.382 --> 23:27.202
back on what I learned from it.

23:27.216 --> 23:31.190
And you also realize, well, if you want to prevent

23:31.250 --> 23:34.822
your kids go through this, which you certainly want to

23:34.836 --> 23:37.860
do, then there's certain things you want to teach them.

23:38.730 --> 23:41.554
And then it's about how to go about

23:41.592 --> 23:43.942
it and how to explain the concepts and

23:44.076 --> 23:46.498
in a way that children also understand and

23:46.524 --> 23:49.582
they understand much more than we usually think. Yeah.

23:49.656 --> 23:50.580
That's amazing.

23:51.570 --> 23:53.050
In the beginning because the program

23:53.100 --> 23:54.286
is not designed for children.

23:54.348 --> 23:58.486
And one day there was a father of a 13 year old.

23:58.608 --> 24:02.182
They asked me, can my son follow your program?

24:02.256 --> 24:05.734
And I said, I'm sorry, I really don't know.

24:05.892 --> 24:10.618
But if he wants to try and he needs more

24:10.644 --> 24:13.570
help, I will step in and maybe you can help.

24:13.620 --> 24:17.926
And actually, afterwards I heard that this was probably

24:17.988 --> 24:21.514
pretty much your 13 year old kid, but it

24:21.552 --> 24:25.630
seemed to have been working, and I even had

24:25.740 --> 24:29.218
recently I met someone where mother and daughter were

24:29.244 --> 24:34.438
both two children, although it's more made in a

24:34.464 --> 24:39.178
language for adults, but indirectly, it seems that it

24:39.204 --> 24:41.820
affects sometimes other members in the family.

24:43.350 --> 24:43.786
Okay.

24:43.848 --> 24:47.062
So there was the daily aspect of

24:47.076 --> 24:53.078
self reflection, and then after that, you

24:53.104 --> 24:56.006
jumped into your normal business life.

24:56.068 --> 25:01.178
And so now that you look back two years and

25:01.204 --> 25:04.898
a half later, other things that you want to add

25:04.984 --> 25:08.678
or to make the picture more complete, or do you

25:08.704 --> 25:11.320
think that you have mentioned the most important things?

25:14.030 --> 25:17.478
I think what I did realize, coming back to

25:17.504 --> 25:21.906
work and then coming into contact with other people

25:21.968 --> 25:25.914
that went through burnout or depression or had very

25:25.952 --> 25:30.022
high stress symptoms, that there is a wide variety

25:30.166 --> 25:35.394
in how people are helped and what information they

25:35.432 --> 25:38.180
have and what they know about it. Yeah.

25:38.750 --> 25:41.010
And it does seem to have a big

25:41.060 --> 25:45.234
impact on the success rate of view of

25:45.392 --> 25:50.326
feeling good and being very effective, efficient.

25:50.518 --> 25:52.606
What do you mean with wide variety?

25:52.678 --> 25:54.774
I'm not sure if I understand that.

25:54.812 --> 26:00.578
Well, there are big differences.

26:00.734 --> 26:04.978
So you have people who recover well because in

26:05.004 --> 26:09.838
your company you can compare with one of the

26:09.864 --> 26:14.474
highest burnout ratios in our company, in our industry.

26:14.642 --> 26:16.102
So there's quite a lot of

26:16.116 --> 26:18.540
people that I can connect with.

26:20.190 --> 26:24.430
And then you see differences in you have people

26:24.480 --> 26:27.480
that are absent for a very long time. Yes.

26:28.170 --> 26:31.670
Sometimes two, three years that people are absent.

26:31.790 --> 26:34.102
That makes me feel sad because most

26:34.236 --> 26:36.410
of those cases could have been prevented.

26:36.470 --> 26:40.438
And as a medical doctor, that hurts. It hurts a lot.

26:40.464 --> 26:43.738
And also it hurts me to see that when they come

26:43.764 --> 26:48.238
back that they are not always fully recovered and they have

26:48.264 --> 26:53.042
such a high risk to fall again, that's interesting because it's

26:53.066 --> 26:56.542
maybe not about the program as much, but I have a

26:56.556 --> 26:59.640
vision, but I would like to hear your vision on it.

27:00.570 --> 27:03.982
If you now after this experience, you see a

27:03.996 --> 27:07.558
person that you say this person has recovered well

27:07.644 --> 27:11.026
and has finished the process in the right way,

27:11.208 --> 27:14.950
and this person is going to have a relapse.

27:15.450 --> 27:18.334
Do you have an idea what makes you

27:18.372 --> 27:22.018
predict the difference, how you can see the

27:22.044 --> 27:25.366
difference between both groups of people?

27:25.428 --> 27:27.240
Because I see that a lot.

27:29.590 --> 27:33.458
I'm not trained as you are, but you do see

27:33.484 --> 27:35.546
a lot, even in just meeting the people and talking

27:35.608 --> 27:38.714
with them in the way they interact with others and

27:38.752 --> 27:41.078
the way that they put a lot of limitations on

27:41.104 --> 27:44.906
themselves, the ones who are going to relapse for me.

27:45.028 --> 27:52.218
So it's like they are overprotective always putting strong boundaries

27:52.254 --> 27:55.526
on what is possible and what's not possible, talking a

27:55.528 --> 27:59.702
lot about their burnout, saying that they need to do

27:59.716 --> 28:01.818
a lot to prevent a new burnout.

28:01.914 --> 28:06.580
So they're already talking it's happening

28:07.210 --> 28:09.446
or they want to convince others. Yeah.

28:09.508 --> 28:12.698
Or want to convince others and they need to be put

28:12.724 --> 28:16.578
in very protected jobs with not a lot of stress.

28:16.614 --> 28:18.938
And to be honest, that's what I always say,

28:18.964 --> 28:22.374
like, okay, where are those jobs without stress?

28:22.422 --> 28:24.810
And how do you define stress?

28:24.990 --> 28:28.626
Because I think even a librarian can have stress.

28:28.758 --> 28:31.778
So where are you going to end up if

28:31.804 --> 28:34.420
you're going to put these limitations onto yourself?

28:34.810 --> 28:36.590
So for me, there is still a lot of

28:36.640 --> 28:39.062
work for these people to do to work on.

28:39.256 --> 28:40.818
How do I see stress?

28:40.974 --> 28:42.530
How do I work with stress?

28:42.970 --> 28:46.274
And it's unfortunate to see that they didn't get

28:46.312 --> 28:50.522
these lines throughout the period that they were ill.

28:50.596 --> 28:52.358
Now I don't see it from the negative side because

28:52.384 --> 28:56.354
I also know that there are options to solve this.

28:56.452 --> 28:59.282
I really hope that these people find a

28:59.296 --> 29:04.240
way to create support for their specific situation.

29:05.290 --> 29:09.686
But it's unfortunate to see but it reminds me,

29:09.808 --> 29:12.054
a colleague of mine who is also in burnout

29:12.102 --> 29:18.220
and stress management medical doctor also, he calls that

29:19.030 --> 29:21.546
some of those people, that they have the missionary

29:21.618 --> 29:24.638
syndrome, like if they're on a mission and they

29:24.664 --> 29:28.646
want either to convert others to the way they

29:28.828 --> 29:33.110
are cured and then the other ones were overprotective.

29:33.730 --> 29:37.718
And I have the impression that is quite often and

29:37.744 --> 29:40.000
that's what we try to avoid with a program.

29:41.230 --> 29:45.510
Many ways of helping are normative.

29:45.630 --> 29:48.158
And they say how the end result

29:48.244 --> 29:52.094
should be and what someone should reach.

29:52.252 --> 29:57.160
And by putting norms, I have the impression that they

29:57.790 --> 30:01.578
stay within the problem because if you enter a burnout

30:01.674 --> 30:05.162
quite often, it's because you up to perfectionist or you

30:05.176 --> 30:07.060
want to do too much and so on.

30:07.390 --> 30:12.218
And if there's not this spontaneous self reflection that

30:12.244 --> 30:17.102
we try to facilitate partially in the program, then

30:17.296 --> 30:20.174
you are not correcting yourself to where you want

30:20.212 --> 30:23.682
to be deeply, but you are trying to adapt

30:23.706 --> 30:27.342
to a norm, just like in the traditional medical

30:27.426 --> 30:30.558
medicine where the doctor makes a medical prescription.

30:30.714 --> 30:33.374
And if you have a cancer, you have to

30:33.412 --> 30:36.602
hope that your doctor makes that medical prescription because

30:36.736 --> 30:39.066
there is a probably the best solution.

30:39.258 --> 30:42.734
And if you need antibiotics, it's probably best

30:42.772 --> 30:45.546
that the doctor prescribes the right antibiotic.

30:45.678 --> 30:52.394
But in stress related issues, if you don't find the way

30:52.432 --> 30:56.078
you want to be yourself and you cannot align who you

30:56.104 --> 31:00.050
are with who you want to be, then you will probably

31:00.160 --> 31:05.082
repeat the same mistakes and quite often it makes me suffer

31:05.106 --> 31:10.130
that so many people get in the hands of people who

31:10.180 --> 31:14.320
have good intentions in coaching others.

31:16.630 --> 31:19.574
The most risks I see quite often if they have

31:19.612 --> 31:26.258
been coached by ex burnout patients or people who have

31:26.284 --> 31:29.294
had the burnout but did not recover themselves and then

31:29.332 --> 31:33.100
start a coaching practice, I see that quite often.

31:34.570 --> 31:37.958
For instance, if I look at you now here in the

31:37.984 --> 31:45.762
interview, it's like you are grounded in your body and yourself

31:45.956 --> 31:51.680
and those people who did not yet finish the process.

31:52.190 --> 31:54.634
You see there is some tension,

31:54.682 --> 31:57.740
there is some cautiousness in that.

31:59.630 --> 32:00.620
That's interesting.

32:02.210 --> 32:02.960
Okay.

32:04.070 --> 32:06.174
Any other things you wanted to share?

32:06.332 --> 32:08.838
No, I think that's it then I thank you a lot.

32:08.864 --> 32:10.374
I'm very happy that you want to

32:10.412 --> 32:13.386
share your experience with some people who

32:13.448 --> 32:17.214
want to know more about this issues. Thanks a lot. Okay.

32:17.312 --> 32:17.640
You're welcome.